Ok so here’s the deal: there’s a website out there called xxxchurch.com - it was founded by a couple of guys who wanted to make Christians aware and open about the problems of pornography, and the porn industry aware of the truth of God’s grace shown on the cross of Christ.
With this in mind, they made their website and began attending the annual porn expo in Las Vegas, setting up a stall with one aim: to preach the gospel to porn stars and directors, and to help porn addicts be set free.
They are obviously very controversial, and are pretty edgy but as of yet I still haven’t actually seen anything unbiblical so for the moment I’m promoting them with an open mind! Something that is certainly good is their accountability software, X3Watch, which sends a regular e-mail to your chosen accountability partner with a list of objectionable websites you have visited. There’s a free version as well as a ‘Pro’ version, and there’s also a link to the best web filtering software I’ve ever seen, Safe Eyes.
Its great that you are taking steps to help yourself and others when it comes to temptations on the Internet. Porn online is such a draw for many people.
X3watch is an okay program for those who don’t know how to get around it, but it is nothing compared to other options. Check out http://www.covenanteyes.com/blog/2008/02/14/x3watch-and-covenant-eyes-what-are-key-the-differences/.
Much like all theological-rightwing ‘thought-policing’ this smacks of a sordid desire to be titilated by the contents of the [accountability] email, “oh G_d you looked at what? that is disgusting! They get up to what?! oh how sinful! Oh my, just the thought of them gets me all worked up, so much so i need to go and have a good hard prayer!’
My, and everyone elses’ private life is just that, private. The insistence of the religious-right in prying, and getting elbow deep in such ‘dirty’ acts is a complete hypocrisy. Considering it is supposedly ‘us’ atheists/secularists who get ‘mired’ in such ‘depravity’ it is amazing how we just leave people to it (it being whatever THEY choose to do with THEIR private lives) While the lily-white pew warmers get worked up into an orgiastic (yes, intentional) frenzy of vigourous flagellation and moral mouth-frothery at things they profess to be above.
You guys can’t help but peek and get all worked up!
Ha – I would agree but for one truth…if morality were subjective and therefore I could just decide what I did for myself then absolutely I’d want everyone to stop prying…
But if I am subject to God’s morality (and if He exists then surely we all are) then having a tool by which I want my friend to see that I’ve been a good boy this week and give me a kick when I’ve not will help me to stay good.
That being said it’s not about my actions or I’d have damned myself to hell by now, and so would you – thank God my righteousness is in Jesus not myself!
a) you think morality isn’t subjective?
b) do you think xtianity invented morality? (or even xtian morals?)
Have a read of the reply – if God exists, then morality is objective – God created good & bad, defined it, etc. Did Christians invent it? No I don’t think so. You should though – is rape wrong? God says no, so do I…but that’s me being objective.
is the only reason you don’t rape because God says not to?
If you don’t mind allow me to return the question:
Why would you not rape unless God had said not to? If morality is subjective then surely if it feels good to do it then it’s fine…isn’t it?!
Now please don’t get me wrong – I’m wholly committed to my wonderful wife and am not saying that rape is good – exactly the opposite – I’m just using an extreme example…yet you seem to find that offensive for some reason – which is odd seeing as you said that morality is subjective! Even if I did think it was ok who would you be to question me?!
Has your wife read this conversation I wonder??
Oh yes, by the way it is my wife who reads the e-mail from this little piece of software…sorry gentlemen if anyone has a problem with that!
morality, as the major religions (esp. the Abrahamic religions) define it is, a codified set of immutable rules. That numerous ‘sets’ or rules exist mean that there are numerous choices of rules and therefore your morality is subjective.
‘Right’ and ‘Wrong’ are very different things to ‘morality’. The reason i brought up the question of christians ‘inventing’ morality was to highlight that there have been inherent (maybe a priori) ‘rules’ that have existed in human society since long before the written tradition.
As for the ‘question of rape,’ are you honestly saying that you only don’t go out raping because ‘God’ told you not to?!
There are things that are fundamentally wrong, as to whether they are ‘a priori’ inherently wrong (i.e. that it is an inherited behaviour/evolutionary survival tactic), or achieved through ancient historical concord (like a kind of antique common law) neither of those has need for a supernal artisan.
Specifically the question ‘why’ we rape is more adequately answered through the idea that different ‘survival techniques’ exist, the ‘standard model’ (not raping) is far more successful (and has long been more successful) than the (current) ‘non-standard model’ i.e. rape.
Two rules in my proudly ‘amoral’ world view a) do what you like, b) don’t make anyone do something they don’t like (this is of course the ‘start from scratch’ idealised view) Note these contain no prescriptive content, they are just fndamental princples, which i) don’t allow room for manipulation, ii) allow constant contemporaneous development, alongside epoch specific social mores and iii) require no God.
‘Do unto others’ pre-dates Christianity, it pre-dates the Old Testament, it in fact pre-dates God. So did God reveal himself via the pre-monothesitic pantheons? (all sorts of questions arise there!) or did he hijack the notion?
Or is the concept of God(s) and the ‘baggage of morality’ constructed around him/her something entirely different and separate to the fundamentals of ‘right’ and ‘wrong’.
Do you eat fish on fridays?
out of curiousity what do i ‘seem to find offensive in some way’?
Ah ok – let’s clarify that we’re using different language here!
Morality for me means the difference between good and bad – so we’ve had our wires crossed . . . yet for some reason you think that there is a global rule for what is good and bad – my question for you would be: who, or what, defines what is good and what is bad?
As far as eating fish on Fridays is concerned I think you have me mixed up with a religious person – I am not saying that I’m always ‘good’, or even ‘morally right’ – I have messed up pretty badly, screwed around with girls, treated them like rubbish and done all kinds of other bad stuff – on my own I have pretty much gone against anyone’s measure of morality – yours, mine, God’s.
Which is why it’s such good news that in Jesus the consequences of my awfulness has been fully dealt with, and his righteousness has been imputed to me! I stand before God as one who is perfect but I don’t deserve it. My challenge to you is whether you would be perfect if you stood before God.
“my question for you would be: who, or what, defines what is good and what is bad?”
I explained this quite adequately in my (admittedly lengthy post above) but here are the highlights…
“there have been inherent (maybe a priori) ‘rules’ that have existed in human society since long before the written tradition.”
to clarify where i say ‘maybe a priori’ i meant one might refer to them as a priori, in as much as they are principles that have existed longer than the written word, probably longer than the aural tradition and in all liklihood longer than humanity, (as we know it) or at least are the likely winner of a number of competing ‘social methods’
and…
“a) do what you like, b) don’t make anyone do something they don’t like (this is of course the ’start from scratch’ idealised view) Note these contain no prescriptive content, they are just fundamental princples, which i) don’t allow room for manipulation, ii) allow constant contemporaneous development, alongside epoch specific social mores and iii) require no God.
to clarify…
i) this system doesn’t allow for ‘manipulation’ (i.e. the undermining of ‘a)’ and ‘b)’ as fundamentals) because they are constant principles unconnected to the context in which they exist.
ii) Similar to above change occurs in society but our use of ‘a)’ and ‘b)’ is fixed relative to whichever epoch we live in. by ‘constant contemporaneous development, alongside epoch specific social mores’ i really mean beyond the fundamentals of ‘a)’ and ‘b)’ morals are relative and fluid (the ‘context’ i refer to above) to act otherwise is to live anachronistically. That is to say people in different eras live by different rules, influenced by a number of different things. Ergo ‘morality’ is subjective.
iii) this system requires no God because it does not require someone/something to ‘voice’ it, because there is prescription. The fundamentals pre-date our existence and therefore our ability to ‘conjure’ them.
They simply are.
As for you’re ‘screwing around’ and the like, again, has nothing to do with what ‘God’ says or not, WE live in an epoch and a society in which those things have been deemed wrong, maybe if you lived in the Court of the Sun King in France rather than finding God, you’d have found influence and power?
As for whether i’d be ‘perfect’ if i ‘stood before God’? Please don’t mind the ‘judo’ move here, but might ask you would you be ‘fizzy if you hula hooped near Bofo the Clown Lord?’ because that statement makes about as much sense.
… “sorry gentlemen if anyone has a problem with that!”
This reinforces my first post, no i don’t have a problem with that, and nor should anyone else, we frankly don’t care what you get up to in your PRIVATE life. And that is the point
Hee hee – you don’t care…but you do care enough to post in a public forum your opinions on my practices…
Anyway I think we’re talking across one another – please let me try to clarify:
When you talk about ‘inherent rules that have existed in human society since long before the written tradition’ then I say that I wholeheartedly agree with you, but that those rules are simply God’s idea – so we think the same but from different angles.
And acting fizzy by hula hooping near the clown lord is absolutely just as silly and mindless as standing perfect before God…but if being fizzy before the clown lord was the answer as to whether or not we would get eternal life rather than punishment then it would be of the highest importance to answer it! Which is why I’m so grateful that I can rely on Jesus’ perfection when that exact highest importance is called upon!
sorry it should say because there is NO prescription
lol ‘Sam’s wife’ here and I can say I am reading Sam’s emails
You haven’t answered any of the incredibly elegantly put points above.
What makes you think the comments above are written by gentlemen?
Is it not more important to be kind to people than to worry about what god wrote/said?
I think that it’s quite clear, to pretty much anyone, that rape is wrong because it hurts another human being, god doesn’t come into it anywhere.
Apologies – allow me to clarify
If there is a God then He defines what’s good and bad, meaning my actions are under only His scrutiny…
He has made a perfect way by which every ‘bad’ thing (defined by Him) can be dealt with – that way is called Jesus.
Because I am so grateful for receiving that gift then I would like to follow His good way and therefore have found a good tool to help me with that.
Now whether or not others think that porn/rape is good/bad is inconsequential because surely only what God thinks makes any difference…
And whether or not you decide to share your life with a friend, or indeed check out mine, what really matters is whether it makes a difference – ‘standing perfect in front of God’ is a ridiculous notion if it makes no difference, but if it’s the difference between life and death then it’s a very good idea
which is why I’m so grateful and want to honour Him…and why I think you should to before writing Him off, He’s a good God!
how many angels can dance atop a pin i wonder?
Do you think I am destined for hell? Will I enjoy it there?
“Hee hee – you don’t care…but you do care enough to post in a public forum your opinions on my practices…”
I don’t care what you get up to in your private life, it’s when you publicly spread such horrible, hateful ideas that I start to have a problem with it. It’s not about your own, personal ‘practices’, it’s about your nasty views on other peoples ‘practices’.
Firstly let’s just say that I wrote a post saying something I have found helpful – people write blogs on all kinds of stuff; there’s no forcing anyone to read or think anything – you came here and read this by choice…
As far as you’re question regarding you going to hell, let’s have a look:
If God exists, and I think He does, and if His standard is perfection, and I think it is, then all of us deserve only hell, because we are not perfect.
If you look at that statement and decide to continue in your imperfection, happy to accept whatever consequences that may bring then I accept that it is your choice, but I would strongly encourage you to change your mind!
For me, I am happy to accept Jesus’ promise of salvation from that destiny through his free gift. I accepted that when I was 19 and have honestly never looked back!
If you think I’m talking crap then you’re welcome to but being offended by me saying that is a bit illogical – if it’s true then change your mind and if it’s not then simply ignore it…but yes, I do think it’s true.
So who is this aimed at? Only people who think like you?
I’m not especially offended by you, really this whole thing just makes me feel incredibly sad.
This entire discussion is pretty pointless, as none of us is likely to experience a damascene conversion to others point of view. I have spent a lot of time thinking about the way I see the world, and continue to do so. You have chosen to relinquish considered thought in favour of pure obedience.
I think the only positive thing really would be if you could maybe try a bit more of that love and kindness that I had (perhaps naively) thought Jesus was such a fan of.
It all just seems so hateful and negative. Why don’t you just have a go at being kind. See how you like it. Let people be. Enjoy everything this lovely world has to offer.
I completely agree with: ”
The world is a dangerous place, not because of those who do evil, but because of those who look on and do nothing.”
I’m just still not quite sure what we can do.
Well, the ‘love and kindness’ that you linked with Jesus is accurate – but I think that again it’s a question of what we’re talking about. For me, a dad who wants to protect his kids and so tells them to be in by a certain time is demonstrating love by ‘imposing a set of rules’ on them – please allow me to take that analogy and apply it to God’s relationship to us:
God has ‘imposed a set of rules’ for us, yet gives us complete free will to do whatever we want – we are welcome to break the rules if we wish, and we all do, all the time! The reason He puts the rules down is not to spoil our fun but to protect us – ‘breaking the rules’ leads to bad stuff (e.g. a man staring lustfully at a girl could lead to him being tempted to rape one) but what really matters is that breaking the rules eventually leads to death and hell – and God wants to protect us from that more than anything.
So, He made a way that we can be protected from hell once and for all. The Bible says that God loved the world so much that He gave His only Son, that whoever believes in him won’t perish but will have eternal life. Now that sounds like real, true love: God sees that we are willingly breaking every rule He put down for our good to protect us, so instead of just punishing, sacrificed His own Son for us? For me?
It’s outrageous, but it’s what the Bible teaches, and that’s why I blog.
“Hee hee – you don’t care…but you do care enough to post in a public forum your opinions on my practices…”
You aren’t keeping your practices private though are you? They directly affect others (your poor wife) and in their hateful content only aim (consciously or subconsciously) to infringe on other people’s freedoms and happiness.
As for why i’m commenting this is a blog (i hardly imagine you wanted it to be silent? perhaps you would have preferred an echo chamber?)… a wise man once said: The world is a dangerous place, not because of those who do evil, but because of those who look on and do nothing.
I believe he was paraphrasing Edmund Burke, I chose Einstein though because he was lucky enough through the accident of birth (or the benificence of ‘God’) to be born in a time when he could realistically choose not to be religious (but then as an atheist, or at least a non practicising Jew, he was no doubt given his generous 76yrs of kindness by God before spending eternity in hell, right?)
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